Lords motion to approve the Global Combat Air Programme International Government Organisation (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024 - Jul 29

Moved by

Baroness Chapman of Darlington

That the draft Order laid before the House on 23 May be approved.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)

My Lords, in December 2022, the United Kingdom, Japan and Italy jointly launched the global combat air programme, known as GCAP, to deliver next-generation aircraft by 2035. On 5 July, the Prime Minister reaffirmed the UK's commitment to promoting co-operation and collaboration between the UK and Italy, with Italy's Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, and on 6 July between the UK and Japan, with Japan's Prime Minister Kishida. It was agreed that the security of the Euro-Atlantic and Indo-Pacific are indivisible. His Majesty's Government are committed to ensuring the security of the Indo-Pacific, working closely with our allies.

For the UK, this aircraft will sit at the heart of a wider system, networked and collaborating with a range of aircraft, including the F35, and broader military capabilities. It will use information systems, weapons and uncrewed collaborative combat air platforms to complete the capability. Replacing the capability provided by Typhoon, this system will sustain the UK's operational advantage. In addition, GCAP will attract investment into research and development in digital design and advanced manufacture processes, providing opportunities for our next generation of highly skilled engineers and technicians.

The signing of the convention on the establishment of the GCAP International Government Organisation, known commonly as GIGO, by the parties of the United Kingdom, Japan and Italy took place in December 2023 and was conducted by the respective defence secretaries of the three nations. The GIGO will function as the executive body, with the legal capacity to place contracts with industrial partners engaged in the GCAP. Through the GIGO, the UK will lead on the development of an innovative stealth fighter jet with supersonic capability and equipped with cutting-edge technology, to facilitate collaboration with key international partners that will raise the profile of the UK's combat air industrial capacity.

The GIGO headquarters will be based in the UK, employing personnel from the UK, Italy and Japan. The chief executive and director posts shall be filled by nationals of different parties, according to a mechanism that shall preserve a balance between the parties. Given the nature of the GIGO as an international defence organisation, the Ministry of Defence, with support from the FCDO, has been leading on trilateral engagement and negotiations on its establishment.

The convention, once in effect, will enable closer collaboration between the parties—being the Governments of Japan, Italy and the UK—and support the development of His Majesty's Government's defence capabilities, stimulated by development of the UK-based headquarters. It will enable further collaboration with key industry partners, with the headquarters supporting hundreds of jobs, working in close partnership with Rolls-Royce, Leonardo UK and MBDA UK, and with hundreds of other companies from across the UK in the supply chain to deliver the GCAP.

This Order in Council is a statutory instrument and forms part of the secondary legislation needed to confer legal capacity and privileges and immunities on the GCAP International Government Organisation. It accords certain privileges and immunities to the organisation's personnel and the representatives of the parties to the convention. This order was laid in draft before Parliament on 23 May 2024, is subject to the affirmative procedure and will be made by the Privy Council once it is approved by both Houses. Subject to the approval and ratification, the treaty would enter into force on the deposit of the last instrument of ratification, or acceptance of the parties. This is anticipated to be autumn 2024, to meet the 2035 in-service date.

This order confers a bespoke set of privileges and immunities, to enable the GIGO to operate effectively in the UK. The Government consider these privileges and immunities both necessary and appropriate to deliver on the interests and commitments that the UK has towards the organisation. They are within the scope of the International Organisations Act and in line with UK precedents. The privileges and immunities conferred on agency personnel and representatives are not for their personal advantage but are in order to ensure complete independence in the exercise of their functions in connection with the GCAP. To be clear, agency personnel have no personal immunity if they commit a crime, and there is a clear carve-out ensuring that they have no immunity in any vehicle incident. These immunities in respect of the GIGO cover immunity from suit and legal process, inviolability of premises and archives, and appropriate tax exemptions and reliefs in relation to its official activities.

In respect of representatives of the parties and staff, the provisions cover functional immunity and an immunity waiver. Additionally, the order includes an exemption from the legal suit and process immunity in the case of a motor traffic offence or damage caused by a motor vehicle. This is a standard clause included in statutory instruments and treaties, providing for privileges and immunities.

To conclude, the support for the GIGO's establishment ensured through this order is a unique opportunity to showcase UK leadership and innovation in the combat air industry on a global stage. Through the GIGO, the UK will collaborate with its international partners on the development of an innovative stealth fighter jet and facilitate collaboration with key international partners that will raise the profile of the UK's combat air industry. The security of the United Kingdom will always be of paramount importance to this Government. Defence is central to both UK security and our economic prosperity and growth, including by harnessing the strength of our well-established defence industries. This GIGO is key to GCAP, and the UK continues to make positive progress with our partners Japan and Italy. I beg to move.

Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)

My Lords, I declare an interest as in the register. Behind this necessary and detailed order lies an enormous project, one of the biggest ever, which we are to undertake with Japan and Italy. We are talking about billions of pounds involved. This is only a small part of it but the importance of the bigger picture is colossal. Behind that lies a weaving together of the most advanced parts of Japanese and British industry in a way that I find immensely encouraging and that we have been working towards for years. We reached a peak of co-operation at the end of the last century, but it rather fell away in the first 10 or 15 years of this one. Now, the scene is much revived, and there are enormous gains for Japan and ourselves. Japan is our best friend in Asia, as they used to say; and I do think Japan still sees us as its best friend in Europe. There are enormous opportunities for prosperity in this country.

All I am asking of the Minister, who introduced this very clearly indeed, is that if there are any bumps along the road, any postponements or any difficulties arising out of interpretation of this order, please could they be handled with the utmost consideration of that wider picture, the sensitivities on both sides and the fact that an enormous amount is at stake? No aircraft will fly for 11 years. It is a long way ahead, and we have many challenges to pass through, and world conditions will probably change enormously by the time we get there. I am sure what I am saying is obvious to the Minister and her government colleagues and I ask to be forgiven for reiterating it. There is a great deal at stake.
Lord Craig of Radley (CB)

My Lords, I very much welcome this new arrangement. It is very encouraging that this was started under one Government and is being continued by another. I hope that will be a good example of further co-operation between the Government and His Majesty's Loyal Opposition. The doubts that were expressed about this programme at one stage appear to have been pushed aside. Certainly, it is important, in an international agreement such as this, that we do not renege. I hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, comes to make his report, he will bear in mind the overriding importance of this, not only internationally but militarily.

Lord Lansley (Con)

My Lords, I shall speak relatively briefly—I hope—to this order. I declare an interest as chair of the UK-Japan 21st Century Group. My noble friend who spoke a moment ago was chair of that group previously. It gives us, I believe, an important perspective on the remarkable strengthening of the UK-Japan relationship over this last decade, which we should certainly treasure. As I have this opportunity, I join in welcoming the noble Baroness to the Government Front Bench and wishing her very well.

5.00pm

I do not want to talk about the capability of the GCAP or Tempest—not least coming after the noble and gallant Lord—as I think we are all agreed about its vital importance as a bridge to the kind of defence and security challenges we may face in the middle of this century, or from 2035 if the in-service date is 2035. However, we can already see, not least in the context of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, just how important it is to have air superiority and to be able to control, as Tempest will, the many unmanned aerial vehicles and the scope and range of the responsibilities that pilots of Tempest will have in the future, and how impossible it would be to engage in any conflict successfully without that kind of air superiority which Tempest can provide.

In relation to this order, as the noble Baroness quite rightly said in her introduction, it is clearly necessary for the implementation of the convention, and I think we are very much looking forward to having GIGO in the UK as the headquarters and to supporting from that headquarters the industrial partnership that is already demonstrating its economic importance in this country. I just want to focus on the relationship of this order to the convention. The order is necessary for its implementation. We are, as I understand it, the first of the three partners to undertake an order of this kind, and we are looking forward to ratification in the autumn.

I remind the House that, on 9 April, the International Agreements Committee published its eighth report, which was on the GIGO convention. Without quoting it at length, paragraph 50 in particular made a recommendation relating to the extent of the privileges and immunities and its interaction with the headquarters of GIGO in this country. My point is not really to discuss that but to say, as a former member of the International Agreements Committee, that we secured the “Grimstone rule”, which says that if a committee of this House—in this case, appropriately, the International Agreements Committee—makes a report drawing an international agreement, such as this convention, to the special attention of the House, the agreement should be given time for a debate in this House prior to ratification. The FCDO is clearly the responsible department in relation to international agreements, so I simply ask the noble Baroness whether she will restate the Government's commitment to respond to that report and to arrange time for a debate in this House on the convention prior to ratification.

Finally, there was a good, useful and interesting debate in the other place on 24 July. I share with my good and honourable friend Dr Dr Andrew Murrison, who was a former Defence Minister, the statement he made at col. 694:

“No Government in their right mind would cancel this project[”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/7/24; col. 694.]](/search/column?VolumeNumber=&ColumnNumber=694&House=1&ExternalId=232AA281-DB57-4872-AEDB-59C5838D4B6C)

I do not think that is really the issue. The issue is that our Japanese colleagues would very reasonably understand that a new Government must assess the strategic defence environment with which they are faced and the priorities that they must attach in their strategic defence review. I think they would wish, where there are clearly leading defence priorities, of which I think it is widely held this is one, that that is made clear by the Government at the earliest possible stage, and in particular that nothing is done as a consequence of the SDR that would imperil the timetable—clearly, the Government are getting on with this order—of the implementation of the convention and its ratification and, of course, most importantly, the development of the programme and the in-service date of 2035. If they can see that the British Government are not prejudicing any of the operational and implementation aspects of the convention or the GCAP project, I think they will completely understand the importance of this Government having a modicum of time in which to assess their own defence priorities.

However, subject to that, I hope that the House will approve the order and we can see the GIGO established in this country as soon as possible.

Viscount Trenchard (Con)

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman of Darlington, on her appointment, and I thank her for introducing this statutory instrument. I must declare my interest as a consultant to Japan Bank for International Cooperation and as an adviser to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.

The noble Baroness the Leader of the House was right to ask your Lordships to dispense with Standing Order 73 to allow the statutory instrument to be approved, notwithstanding that the Joint Committee has not been able to consider it and has not laid a report before your Lordships, as it is normally obliged to do.

As the Minister explained, the SI before us supports the implementation of an international treaty, namely the convention between the Governments of Italy, Japan and the UK, signed in December 2023, establishing the GIGO—I think our Italian friends pronounce it “JIGO”, but I will follow the example of the noble Baroness. She said that the treaty had been signed before the election but could not be implemented because of the Dissolution. I am not quite clear why this was not done before the Dissolution, but I am happy that the Government recognise the importance of taking action to avoid delays to the timelines that we have agreed with our Japanese and Italian partners.

Most of our Japanese friends who are involved with the project had wanted it to be a bilateral project between Japan and the United Kingdom and initially resisted our proposal that it should be a trilateral project including Italy. They thought that a bilateral project with only two partners would be less at risk of delays than a trilateral or multilateral project, whoever the partners are. The need of the Japan Air Self-Defense Force for the GCAP to be delivered on time is even more pressing than our own, because its F2 aircraft must be replaced by 2035, whereas the RAF Typhoons may be capable of extending their working lives to some extent. I welcome the fact that the Government have taken account of the need to provide assurance to the Government of Japan that they are determined to avoid a delay such as is now feared. Can the Minister tell the House when the announcement on the location of the GIGO will be made? We know that it will be in the UK, but the announcement as to where it will be located has already been delayed well beyond what was expected.

Speaking at Farnborough, the Prime Minister said that GCAP was important and was making “significant progress”, but he stopped short of saying that Britain's participation in it would continue. The Secretary of State for Business has been more explicit in his support and has been quoted as saying that the Government were “very strongly committed” to the programme. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has also tried to be as reassuring as possible without saying that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, would have his hands tied on this point. I do not expect the Minister to be able to give any stronger reassurance today, but I welcome the Government's decision to bring forward this statutory instrument for approval.

As the Minister explained, the statutory instrument gives effect to the treaty and confers legal capacity on the GIGO. It also grants the normal diplomatic privileges and immunities which are extended to diplomats. I am sure that Japan and Italy will provide similar immunities and privileges to British employees dispatched to work for the GIGO in those countries. Can the Minister tell the House when she expects the GIGO to appoint the chairman and members of the steering committee? What process will be used to select directors of the GCAP agency and by when does she expect they will be appointed?

I was happy to hear the Minister use the term Indo-Pacific in her introduction, because I have not heard that term used often by noble Lords on her Benches until now. Can she confirm that I would be wrong to suggest that the Government are just a little sceptical about the tilt to the Indo-Pacific? I hope she will say that I am wrong. I welcome the Government's proposal to give this instrument a fair wind and support the Motion to approve it.

Lord Liddle (Lab)

I had not intended to intervene, but I have been very interested to listen to other noble Lords talk about this issue. It is a pity, on something of such profound importance, on which, as many Members have said, billions of pounds are at stake, that we have not had any opportunity for our committees to come forward to this House and tell us the level of commitment that is being made. Is it a commitment that we are bound by until the completion of the project, or are there ways in which the concept can be changed?

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that this is an immensely important step forward in industrial partnership between Japan and the United Kingdom. That is very important. We all know what huge benefit we gained from the revival of our car industry from the 1980s onwards as a result of Japanese commitment to the UK. This is an opportunity for another wave of that partnership.

However, I was on the European Affairs Committee of this House for a long time, and I am conscious that our chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, was always warning us about the dangers of British overcommitment on defence questions—an overcommitment that we would be unable to fulfil. My noble friend Lord Donoughue will remember this: one of the key things that the Wilson Governments got right in the 1960s was the decision, in 1968, to withdraw east of Suez, because it put our defence policy on an affordable and deliverable basis when Britain was no longer in a position to do that.

There are issues here. The most important defence priority of the moment is not an aircraft in 15 years' time, it is getting troops, which we do not have, on the ground in the Baltic states on the borders with Russia to deter any potential Russian aggression as a result of the Ukraine war. That is the biggest priority and the biggest need in the defence budget. We have to be wary about these very long-term, hugely expensive commitments.

Is it possible for other nations to join this partnership? That might help reduce some of the enormous costs of this programme. I know that the French and Germans have their own ideas about having a programme, but a lot of people think that it is ludicrous for Europe to try to develop two of these advanced aeroplanes on the Tempest model, and that Europe might decide that it wants to come in. There has been speculation in the press that Germany, as a result of budgetary pressures, is worried about its commitment to this future fighter with France. Would it be possible for the Germans to come in? There has been talk about Saudi Arabia joining. How would this work? Is the legal framework flexible enough to allow these welcome developments?

I emphasise that I am not against this order, but there are big long-term questions. I am slightly surprised that we are doing it—perhaps for good reasons, for all I know—before we have the results of the review of Britain's defence commitments from the noble Lord, Lord Robertson. I look forward to that because I cannot think of anyone better to lead it.

5.15pm
Lord Naseby (Con)

My Lords, as the House knows, I had the privilege of being an RAF jet pilot. This programme is absolutely fundamental to air power, which, ultimately, in the modern world, is almost more important—some would say more important—than feet on the ground.
I will not repeat what my colleagues have said but will just say, “Well done”. It has been only two sitting days since we discussed defence issues. I took part in that really good debate, when it was made clear across the House that this particular project is fundamental to the future defence of our nation. I thank the noble Baroness on the Front Bench—and welcome her to that role—for moving with speed. I had the privilege of being a Deputy Speaker down the other end, so am willing to help with the proceedings on this important project.

I have worked with the Japanese in the past and believe that they are very efficient. That is a blessing in itself and I would not extend this programme beyond the three parties involved. I wish the Government all possible speed. We know that our friend, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is very much behind this as well.

Baroness Ms Smith of Newnham (LD)

My Lords, I have an advantage—or disadvantage—on these Benches because, as often with debates on defence, there is nobody behind me on the Back Benches to say anything different from what I may be or had been planning to say.

As other noble Lords have, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, to her place. I am speaking as the defence spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats, even though this SI is being brought forward via the FCDO, precisely because we felt that this is a critical defence issue. Obviously, the interplay of defence and foreign policy is vital.

I listened to much of the debate in the other place about the GCAP arrangements. I think that GCAP has the huge advantage that we can probably all pronounce it, as opposed to GIGO and its alternative pronunciations. I will focus on GCAP.

I had the huge benefit of listening to the passion right across the other place for this commitment to the trilateral relationship with Japan and Italy. Much of the discussion here has been about the relationship with Japan, which is clearly very important to the Japanese. Over the last couple of years, the Japanese embassy has been regularly coming to Liberal Democrat conferences. Before other embassies remembered that we existed, the Japanese ambassador and his colleagues were coming to talk to us. The bilateral relationship with Japan and the relationship on this specifically are hugely important. Last week, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, was keen to reiterate the commitment of His Majesty's Government to GCAP, which was very reassuring to your Lordships' House.

Today, we are obviously supposed to be focusing on the statutory instrument. I have a couple of very specific questions I want to raise. I note that there is no impact assessment, and the reason given for that is that no impact, or no significant impact, is foreseen on the private, voluntary or public sectors in the UK. I wonder why not. What would count as significant? Surely one of the benefits of the Tempest programme is precisely that it is intended to have a significant impact on our defence capability. Presumably, this is simply the language of a statutory instrument.

In particular, it was noted that there would not be a significant impact on small businesses or micro-businesses. I raised this in the humble Address debate last week, with the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. The question was about the role of small and medium-sized enterprises. Clearly, if this is about defence investment and defence research and development, there is a potentially significant role for small, medium and even micro-businesses in the United Kingdom. What do His Majesty's Government think are the possibilities for those small businesses and micro-businesses?

I declare an interest—not, unlike other noble Lords, an Anglo-Japanese interest—as I am a trustee of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Trust, which organises the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme. It is essentially funded by the defence industries and, given that some of the primes were mentioned by the Minister, I thought I should reflect that as a declaration of interest, although I do not benefit personally.

In addition to wanting a better understanding of the impact on our defence industrial base, I also want to ask a few questions related to those from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on the Labour Back Benches. This is not because I disagree in any way with the proposals here, but in order to get a little more information. Whether somebody was trying to tease the United Kingdom Government in drafting this convention, I am not sure. If we ever wanted to rejoin the European Union, we would be doing so under Article 49. It would appear that, if any country is looking to sign up to this convention, it is under Article 49. There are some provisions under Article 48 and 49 looking at the possibility of expansion. What is His Majesty's Government's thinking about the possibility of expansion? The wording seems to be slightly vague at the moment. It is down to the steering committee of the GIGO to decide whether other countries can discuss possible membership. If a third-party country decided it wished to join, would that have to come to the United Kingdom Parliament to be ratified, or is it down to the steering committee, which would not appear to be right? A greater understanding about that would be welcome.

Similarly, under Article 50, about defence exports, what are the mechanisms likely to be if one of the current parties has an arms export ban to a certain country? How is that going to work in terms of dealing with the GCAP?

Finally, there does not appear to be any provision for regular reporting, other than back to the MoD and the FCDO. Will there be a way for Parliament to be updated on these arrangements? These are very much by way of probing questions and not in any way speaking against the statutory instrument and the convention, which are most welcome.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)

My Lords, I begin by saying that we fully support the measures before us. As the Minister said in her introductory remarks, it is necessary to deliver the appropriate instrument into law, but it is also about ensuring that UK military capability in the crucial area of air combat is ready. We do so with two great partners, Italy and Japan. Of course, we should not forget that Japan has challenges in its part of the world that many other countries do not face, not least the challenge posed by Russia.

Since the trilateral in September 2023, this project has already achieved significant goals, not least the signing of the international treaty last December that we are legislating for today. This is welcome.
The treaty establishes the legal basis for GIGO—and we need that abbreviation, otherwise we would be repeating “GCAP International Government Organisation” several times, which would extend any debate. The fact that the international headquarters of GIGO will be in the UK is in keeping with the spirit of equal partnership and underpins the importance of GCAP. The first chief executives of the GCAP agency and joint venture are from Italy and Japan—again, that underlines the important collaboration.

As such, the SI before us enables this international treaty to enter into effect, with important measures, as was said in the introduction, on immunity and privileges that are necessary for the effective operation of the GIGO. This SI is necessary to deliver GCAP's governance arrangements, but in itself will not deliver a single aircraft. Therefore, it is important that we back GCAP to the hilt; the GCAP programme needs to be wholeheartedly supported, with the appropriate funding necessary to deliver our sixth-generation fighter capability.

As Parliament approves this SI, we welcome the remarks of the Minister, and those of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, recently as well, about the Government's support for GCAP. There has been a lot of speculation and it is important that that speculation is put to rest with wholehearted backing for GCAP. That was consistent across both the new Government and the previous Government during the election. I am sure the Minister will agree that clarity from government is important for Parliament, industry and our international partners. As we approach this SI, it is important that our commitment to GCAP is clear.

I assure the Minister that from these Benches His Majesty's Official Opposition are clear that we support the SI on the basis that we are supporting GCAP as a whole, including by putting in place the funding necessary to deliver its requirements over the urgent timescale that all three member nations require. That is the key point for all three nations; GCAP is all about pace and timetable. For the United Kingdom and Italy, that means replacing the Typhoon before it is withdrawn from service towards 2040. For Japan, with equal urgency, it means replacing the Mitsubishi F2. That is why any delay or deferment, whether caused by the lack of a clear timetable or otherwise, is so critical.

Reflecting on the points made by my noble friends Lord Howell, Lord Lansley and Lord Trenchard, in 2020 PricewaterhouseCoopers estimated that the Tempest programme alone would support an average of 20,000 jobs every year from 2026 until 2050. The noble Baroness, Lady Ms Smith, also raised an important point about small businesses within the issue of jobs and the economic growth of the United Kingdom. These are well-paid jobs in every constituency up and down the country. Therefore, any notion of holding back on GCAP expenditure would hit our economy hard. Any sense of delaying or deferring GCAP expenditure would undermine our brilliant aerospace industry, and indeed cast doubt over the vast sums of private investment that are already waiting in the wings, from which hundreds of UK SMEs stand to benefit.

We all recognise that GCAP is important to our economy, our future war-fighting capability and our relations with our closest international partners; the Minister recognised that in her introduction. Therefore, we need to ensure that the Government embrace GCAP wholeheartedly and confirm, as I have before, their strong and steadfast support. That includes a clear timetable on 2.5%, so that we can ensure that this programme can be accelerated by investing not only in the core platform but in the associated technology of autonomous collaboration and a digital-system approach, enabling the mass and rapid absorption of battle space data.

As my noble friend Lord Naseby alluded to, it is important that we invest. People often talk of the next war, and I am sure the Minister agrees with me that the best way to win a war is to avoid it in the first place. That requires investment, and that is what GCAP is all about. Part of our overall deterrence posture is to signal to our adversaries that we stand with our allies and friends, and our preparedness to always be ready to out-compete their technology.

I conclude by saying that His Majesty's Official Opposition fully support this statutory instrument and GCAP, and the powerful gains that it will give to the United Kingdom's economic and military strength, along with our key partners, Italy and Japan.

5.30pm
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to this afternoon's discussion, and will address some of the important questions raised. I am grateful to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and to hear his trenchant support for GCAP. That is noted, and I am sure it will also be noted by my noble friend Lord Robertson as he conducts his strategic defence review.

I know that the House has a keen interest in the UK's work as part of GCAP. Together with our partners Japan and Italy we are working to deliver a next-generation combat aircraft with advanced survivability, sensors, weapons and data systems. As well as cutting-edge military technology, the programme is delivering significant economic benefits, with more than 3,500 people already working on GCAP across the UK.

The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ms Smith, about investment and opportunities for jobs, and in particular small businesses, was important and well made. I reassure her that there currently are over 600 organisations and academic institutions involved, including small businesses. I thank her for making that point.

I am not an MoD Minister, and my noble friend Lord Coaker would be unhappy with me if I started to give too many of my own opinions on defence issues. We are looking today at the privileges and immunities that will enable us to continue with the GIGO establishment. In doing so we will be able to better support GCAP's programme aims and fulfilment of the Government's objectives. We will also be better placed to work with international partners and influence the combat air industry as a result.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, urged us to handle this programme with sensitivity. He gave wise counsel and his speech was well received. I will keep his wise words in mind.
Just as my noble friend Lord Robertson will hear the support given to GCAP by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, I am equally sure that he will hear the argument made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, and the words of support he shared with us.

I am aware of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about the International Agreements Committee. I will discuss this with our business managers. Obviously, there will be no desire to delay anything any further than necessary. He makes the exact point that I would have made, sitting where he is, but we want to make sure that we can proceed in a timely manner. There will be opportunities to scrutinise this, as noble Lords would expect. I also take the noble Lord's point about the strategic defence review, and ask him to note that we have brought this here today in a timely way.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, asked an important question about where the location will be and when that announcement will be made—the answer is in due course. I am told that there are commercial sensitivities around this, which I am sure he will appreciate, but I am heartened to know that there would be considerable pride taken in hosting this organisation, wherever it ends up being established.

As a Government, we of course welcome the opportunity to work with the Indo-Pacific region. No reluctance should be interpreted in any way about the Government's enthusiasm for working with Indo-Pacific nations. I speak as the new Minister for Latin America, so I am very keen that we take this approach.

My heart always sinks a little when I am challenged by my noble friend Lord Liddle. We do not enter these arrangements lightly. There are clear benefits for both defence capability and jobs and skills. My noble friend made a strong case for this strategic defence review. He is very well placed to make sure that his view is known to his noble friend Lord Robertson.

I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for his offer of support and assistance. His experience in this and in the other place will be invaluable.

The issue of further partners was raised by my noble friend Lord Liddle and the noble Baroness, Lady Ms Smith. All three GCAP partners have highlighted our openness to working with other nations through this programme while supporting the objective of the core partners, delivering a successful programme and keeping us on course for a 2035 in-service date. Any decisions on wider partnering will be made together by the core partners.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ms Smith, introduced her question by talking about membership of the EU and whether we might wish to rejoin. I am not sure if that is her party's position currently—I may have missed it—but it is not currently the Government's position.

Baroness Ms Smith of Newnham (LD)

To clarify, I was merely speculating about where a country might wish to join—or rejoin under Article 49. I was not suggesting that noble Lords on any Benches are necessarily pushing for it at this stage.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)

I am sure that the whole House is grateful to the noble Baroness for that clarification.

Motion agreed.