Lords repeat of Commons statement on Prison Capacity - Jul 24

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made in the House of Commons by the Lord Chancellor. Before I do so, I will say that I look forward to addressing the House more fully with my maiden speech during the debate on the King's most gracious Speech. I understand that it is rare for a Minister in your Lordships' House to take a Statement before giving their maiden speech. However, given the timely importance of the subject at hand today, we thought it helpful to take this Statement at the earliest opportunity.

I will now repeat the Statement:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I will make a Statement about prison capacity in England and Wales. As you know, I wanted to make this announcement first in this House. However, given the scale of the emergency facing our prisons, I was forced to set out these measures before Parliament returned.
It has become clear, since this Government took office two weeks ago, that our prisons are in crisis and are at the point of collapse. The male prison estate has been running at over 99% capacity for the last 18 months. We now know that my predecessor warned No. 10 Downing Street but, rather than address this crisis, the former Prime Minister called an election, leaving a time bomb ticking away. If that bomb were to go off—if our prisons were to run out of space—the courts would grind to a halt, suspects could not be held in custody and police officers would be unable to make arrests, leaving criminals free to act without consequence. In short, if we fail to intervene now, we face the prospect of a total breakdown of law and order.

Rather than act, the last Prime Minister allowed us to edge ever closer to catastrophe. Last week, there were around 700 spaces remaining in the male prison estate. With 300 places left, we reach critical capacity. At that point, the smallest change could trigger the chain of events I just set out. With the prison population rising, it is now clear that by September this year our prisons will overflow. That means there is now only one way to avert disaster.

As the House knows, most of those serving standard determinate sentences leave prison at the halfway point, serving the rest of their sentence in the community. The Government now have no option but to introduce a temporary change in the law. Yesterday, we laid a statutory instrument in draft. Subject to the agreement of both Houses, those serving eligible standard determinate sentences will leave prison after serving 40%, rather than 50%, of their sentence. Our impact assessment estimates that around 5,500 offenders will be released in September and October. From that time until we are able to reverse this emergency measure, 40% will be the new point of automatic release for eligible standard determinate sentences.

The Government do not take this decision lightly, but to disguise reality and delay any further, as the last Government did, is unconscionable. We are clear that this is the safest way forward. In the words of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Mark Rowley, these steps are ‘the least worst option'. He said that

‘the worst possible thing would be for the system to block',

and that any alternative to these measures would be ‘dangerous for the public'.

I understand that some may feel worried by this decision, but I can assure the House that we are taking every precaution available to us. There will be important exclusions. Sentences for the most dangerous crimes—for sexual and serious violent offences—will not change. That will also be the case for a series of offences linked to domestic violence, including stalking, controlling or coercive behaviour and non-fatal strangulation, as well as those related to national security.

We will also implement stringent protections. First, this change will not take effect until early September, giving the Probation Service time to prepare. Secondly, all offenders released will be subject to strict licence conditions, to ensure they can be managed safely in the community. Thirdly, offenders can be ordered to wear electronic tags and curfews will be imposed where appropriate.
Let me be clear: this is an emergency measure, not a permanent change. This Government are clear that criminals must be punished. We do not intend to allow the 40% release point to stand in perpetuity. That is why I will review these measures again, in 18 months' time, when the situation in our prisons will have stabilised. Throughout, this Government will be transparent. We will publish data on the number of offenders released quarterly and we will publish an annual prison capacity statement, legislating to make this a statutory requirement.

When we implement this change, we will stop the end of the custody supervised licence scheme introduced by the last Government. This scheme operated under a veil of secrecy. From the Benches opposite, I was forced to demand more information about who was being released and what crimes they had committed. This Government have now released the data showing that over 10,000 offenders were released early, often with very little warning to probation officers, placing them under enormous strain. This was only ever a short-term fix. It was one of a series of decisions this Government believe must be examined more fully, which is why we are announcing a review into how this capacity crisis was allowed to happen, looking at why the necessary decisions were not taken at critical moments.

The measures I have set out today are not a silver bullet. The capacity crisis will not disappear immediately, and these measures will take time to take effect. But when they do, they will give us the time to address the prisons crisis, not just today but for years to come. This includes accelerating the prison building programme to ensure we have the cells we need. Later this year, we will publish a 10-year capacity strategy. It will outline the steps that this Government will take to acquire land for new prison sites and will be supported by this Government's new planning and infrastructure Bill, which will take control of the planning process. It will also classify prisons as being of national importance, placing decision-making in Ministers' hands. This Government are also committed to longer-term reform and cutting reoffending.

Too often, our prisons create better criminals, not better citizens. Nearly 80% of offending is reoffending, at immense cost to communities and the taxpayer. As Lord Chancellor, my priority is to drive that number down. To do that, this Government will strengthen probation, starting with the recruitment of at least 1,000 new trainee probation officers by the end of March 2025. We will work with prisons to improve offenders' access to learning and other training, as well as bringing together prison governors, local employers and the voluntary sector to get ex-offenders into work. If an offender has a job within a year of release, they are less likely to reoffend. It is only by driving down reoffending that we will find a sustainable solution to the prisons crisis.

In a speech last week, I called the last occupants of 10 Downing Street ‘the guilty men'. I did not use that analogy flippantly. I believe that they placed the country in grave danger. Their legacy is a prison system in crisis, moments from catastrophic disaster. It was only by pure luck, and the heroic efforts of prison and probation staff, that disaster did not strike while they were in office. The legacy of this Government will be different: a prison system brought under control; a Probation Service that keeps the public safe; enough prison places to meet our needs; and prisons, probation and other services working together to break the cycle of reoffending.

I never thought that I would have to announce the measures that I have set out today, but this Government have been forced by the scale of this emergency to act now rather than delaying any longer, because this Government will always put the country and its safety first. I commend this Statement to the House”.

4.10pm
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Timpson of Manley, to his place on the Front Bench. Repeating a Statement has always struck me as one of the odder things that one has to do from the Front Bench, and I congratulate him on having completed it. I also have a further degree of sympathy with him in his opening outing in your Lordships' Chamber. When I gave my maiden speech, I had to speak half of it as a maiden speech and half of it on a Bill, prompting my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern to say, “I very much enjoyed half of the Minister's speech”. However, I look forward to welcoming properly the noble Lord to his place on the occasion of his maiden speech, which he is shortly to deliver.

The strain on prison capacity has been a matter of anxious concern for Parliament for some time, and the matter was brought frequently before your Lordships' House in the course of the last Parliament. This is an area of great complexity, in which the actions of the Government of the day must take into account considerations over which they have no control, and should never seek to have control—such as decisions taken by the independent judiciary on sentencing, carried out on a case-by-case basis, to arrive at a sentence apt for the individual circumstances of the case and the need at once to protect the public, to punish, to deter and to rehabilitate.

It also has to reflect the physical capacity of the prison estate to accommodate prisoners. There is an inevitable tension between the need to protect the public by imprisoning serious offenders and the need to have sufficient provision of prison accommodation and staff so that the crucial function of rehabilitation might be best accomplished. It is liable to be upset by sudden contingencies, such as the closure of HM Prison Dartmoor and the effect that had on the number of available places on the estate.

At all times, the previous Government sought to manage this difficult problem in a manner which addressed all concerns while reflecting their paramount concern: the safety of the public. That is why, during the pandemic, in circumstances wholly without precedent, the previous Government made the decision not to order a mass release of prisoners from our jails, as happened in other countries and as was pressed on us by public health experts and others. I acknowledge immediately that we were supported in that steadfastly by the then Opposition, who now sit on the Government Front Bench. Events demonstrated that that was the correct decision. During the pandemic, we maintained that vital safeguard of our liberties which we all enjoy: trial by jury.
However, all that added to the pressure on the prison estate: the numbers of those remanded pending trial or sentencing increased from around 9,000 to 16,500. The previous Government acted to allow longer sentences for the most serious crimes, conscious of the possible strain on prison places, and acted at all times to reflect the overriding necessity of protecting the law-abiding public and reflecting their concerns that punishment should properly reflect the gravity of the crime for which it is imposed.

The previous Government also acted responsibly and with foresight to address the capacity of the prison system in England and Wales. The biggest prison-building programme since the 19th century was commenced. During the last Government, more than 13,000 additional prison places were created, two new prisons were opened, a third is under construction at present, planning permission has been granted for two more and a decision is imminent on another. Some £30 million was allocated for the purchase of land on which prison construction could take place.

On probation, a detailed Statement was made to the other place and repeated in your Lordships' House on 13 March. I repeat some of the details: additional funding for probation of £155 million; more than 4,000 trainee probation officers beginning their training; and probation practice redirected to areas which bring the best results in reducing reoffending, as well as public protection.

When the Lord Chancellor says that she will recruit at least 1,000 new trainee probation officers, is that in addition to those that we announced? Will the Government commit more funds to recruitment and training of probation officers? We do not see any acknowledgement of that in the Lord Chancellor's Statement. She professes to find herself shocked by what she discovered on taking up office about the pressures on the system, but the figures on the prison population in England and Wales were not only widely publicly available during the last Parliament but matters of urgent debate here and in the other place. They can have come as a surprise to no one.

The previous Government left the new Government with no ticking time bomb, but the Lord Chancellor's Statement prompts real concern for public safety. These Benches will watch what develops with anxious concern. In the Statement, she made a promise to be transparent in a way that she says the previous Government simply were not. In the spirit of that transparency, I pose certain questions.

Does the Minister agree with the position outlined from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench in the other place by Alistair Carmichael MP that prisons should be used less? It is a perfectly defensible position which is perfectly capable of being argued. We do not agree with it on these Benches, but do the Government? If they do, how do they intend to deal with violent crime, rapists, persistent offenders who have no fear of the system and the epidemic of benefit and financial fraud which the country is experiencing? Does the Minister agree that it is easier to speak about community alternatives to custody than to devise ones which are not expensive to operate and difficult to organise and command the support of the public and the judiciary?
We heard from the Lord Chancellor of the safety measures on which she relies in relation to this new measure of early release. I submit that she does nothing more than rehearse safeguards which already exist. She speaks of strict licensing conditions, electronic tagging and curfews where appropriate. These are familiar measures, deployed to support prisoners released on licence. They are measures of long standing. The Lord Chancellor announces a policy which will understandably create concerns for public safety and then, to allay concerns arising from that new policy, founds a series of safeguards that already exist. That is nothing new.

The Lord Chancellor offered specific reassurance on crimes of domestic violence in the debate that followed her Statement. Before too long, I hope that we will hear from her about the significance of other crimes, such as those relating to public order, the need to maintain our civic spaces and free thoroughfares and the need to protect our retail sector and those working in it from those who try to dictate to us what we should buy and from whom. We look forward to hearing from her on these matters.

I wonder whether the Lord Chancellor would agree with that great man of the left, George Orwell, about the harmful properties of stale, clichéd language and dead metaphor. Her Statement gives us “ticking time bomb”, “silver bullet”, “veil of secrecy”, “the guilty men” and much more tired language besides. Orwell's point is that such language not only serves to disguise meaning or conceal the absence of content in a statement but has actively harmful effects on the reader by helping to deaden not only the capacity for clarity of expression but the capacity for clarity of thought. It is inevitable that we express ourselves in such a way in politics—and I certainly would not hold up my own contributions to this House as models—but the Lord Chancellor's Statement was filled with cliché. Can we see clarity from the Government?

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)

My Lords, we too welcome the Minister to his new role, and we look forward to his official maiden speech later today with enthusiasm, not least because we have for a number of years on these Benches cited his ground- breaking commitment in his business and more generally to the rehabilitation of prisoners through training and employment.

However, to say we welcome this Statement would be inaccurate, because it reflects a complete failure of our prison system, but we recognise the emergency and, with it, the need for the measures announced in the Statement. We also endorse the Statement's serious criticisms of the last Government's performance; they allowed, encouraged and created the present prison capacity crisis. I disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, for whom I have the greatest respect, as to the foresight, commitment and care of the last Government on this issue, which was sadly lacking.

On these Benches, and on the Labour Benches, we warned of this crisis during the last Parliament over and over again, but the Government carried on in the same old way, filling our prisons to bursting and failing to address the disastrous conditions within them.
The Government's stated aim is that the 40% early release point should not stand in perpetuity and is to be reviewed in 18 months' time. We agree with that and that this process will be a slow one, but progress is thoroughly necessary. A wholesale programme of prison reform is needed. We imprison far too many people in this country for far too long. We have seen significant sentence inflation over recent years, and it is no good just blaming the judges for passing longer sentences; government legislation on sentencing and later release dates has significantly increased prisoner numbers. We need more use of community sentences and that means more probation officers—we welcome the commitment in the Statement to an urgent recruitment programme. However, to echo the question from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, does that include a commitment to fully funding an increased overall number of probation officers?

Our prisons are desperately overcrowded; cells are packed to well over capacity; temporary prefab cells are used; repairs and maintenance are cancelled. Cells that should not be in service are brought back into use. Prisoners are shuffled around the prison estate at the expense of continuity of training and supervision. Understaffing remains acute, with insufficient officers to manage our prisons, even to get prisoners to where they need to be for education and training courses when they are available. Twenty-two hours daily in overcrowded cells has become the new commonplace within our prison system, which has led to mental health issues, serious violence and massive drug abuse. When will we introduce mandatory drugs checks for everyone entering prisons, staff as well as visitors? There is ample evidence that too many drugs enter prisons in the hands of members of staff who give their colleagues a bad name and seriously damage morale.

The prison building programme set out to provide 20,000 new places under the last Government, but, of those, some 4,000 already counted as present capacity. Only Millsike in Yorkshire, with just 1,500 places, is approaching completion next year. Grendon in Buckinghamshire now at least has planning permission for another 1,500 places, but in the other sites not a brick has been laid. Two prisons at Gartree and Chorley are still in the planning process, and two near Braintree have not even been decided on yet. The whole promised programme of the last Government involved double counting and smoke and mirrors. The new Government's programme is welcome, and so is the caution and moderation with which the Statement stressed it—but it is crucial.

On any view, the last Government's building programme could not possibly keep up with the projected rise in prison numbers—17,000 more places needed in three years on present trends. The only answer is to reverse those trends; reduce reoffending, emphasise reform and rehabilitation as the function of prisons and do all we can to reduce prison numbers. Does the Minister agree?

Lord Timpson (Lab)

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, for their questions. This is my first time in this House answering questions, so I apologise in advance should I not respect any of the customs and courtesies of the House by mistake. Having not even done my maiden speech yet, this feels to me like having a first ski lesson on a black run. I thank noble Lords for their patience and will do my best to answer all their questions.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, raised a point on the sentencing review that we are planning. The sentencing framework has been allowed to develop piecemeal, over time. As a result, there have been inconsistencies that do not make sense to victims or the wider public. We will be launching a review of sentencing. While the terms of reference are not yet defined, this will look to ensure that the sentencing framework is consistent and clear to the public. More details of this review will be announced in due course.

On HMP Dartmoor, one of the first roles that I have had since taking on this job is focusing on prison capacity. It was unfortunate that I had a note from my officials regarding the temporary closure of HMP Dartmoor at a time when we really need capacity. At Dartmoor, safety is our number one priority. After close monitoring of the situation, it has been decided that the prison will temporarily close. I will update the House as the situation develops.

This Government are committed to a 10-year capacity strategy, and we recognise that we need to make sure that this country has the prison places that it needs. We will deliver where the previous Government failed, and we will never allow the planning process to get in the way of having the prisons we need.

Talking about the prisons we need, we need to build more prisons, because we need to keep the public safe, but one of the themes also raised is around reducing reoffending. I have been working on this for the last 22 years, finding ways to recruit people from prison to help them get a job, live a normal life and not reoffend. This is not a quick fix—it takes time—but recruiting 1,000 probation officers is a good start. These will be in addition to the probation staff we have now.

Only late last week, I went to the Camden and Islington probation delivery unit and met the team there, which was preparing to deal with the offenders who were being released in September and October. I was delighted at the commitment, focus and professionalism of this team, and I am confident that they will do their best in very difficult circumstances.

On training, I do not know about probation officers but, just before I came into this role, I completed a review for the Government on prison officer training. It was clear to me where the gaps were, and I am looking forward to working with colleagues in the months ahead to see what can be learned not just for prison officers but for probation officers.

On safeguards put in place for early release, the scheme currently in place is a very rushed and disorganised way of releasing people from prison, which puts extra pressure on probation officers to do all the work they need to do to identify victims, to find places to live, and to connect the offenders up with mental health and drug workers. The eight weeks that they now have to prepare for the releases will make this easier, but it is far from perfect.
The 40% early release scheme will be reviewed and, in 18 months' time, the plan is for it to go back to 50%, but the noble Lord is right when he says that we need a wholesale programme of prison reform. Community sentences are vital, but we need to resolve the capacity crisis we have now, because our probation officers are overworked. The recruiting of 1,000 extra probation officers will help, but they also need time for the system to settle down.

Finally, I will mention training and education. Prisons are not places where we want people just to be locked up. We want them to have opportunities to turn their lives around. A lot of that is around training and learning skills, so that when they are released they can have a job and not go back. Some 80% of people who offend are reoffenders. It is hard to do this well in the current crisis, but I emphasise that I look forward to working with the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord and having countless important debates. I stress to all noble Lords that I will write a letter, which might be quite a long one, on all the points I did not answer today.

4.30pm
Lord Blunkett (Lab)

My Lords, I commend my noble friend on getting through his maiden Statement, and in particular for answering the questions so concisely and clearly. He of all people, as he has already referred to, is fully aware of the big challenges of rehabilitation and avoiding reoffending and, therefore, recall. Would he be prepared to talk to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State and, I hope, Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government about the very real challenge of additional large numbers being released into local communities in September and October, to avoid homelessness and to ensure that there is not a return to prison, which all of us fear?

Lord Timpson (Lab)

I thank my noble friend for the question. It is crucial that people leaving prison have somewhere to live. Having been in this space for a number of years, I have met too many people who have left prison—I have seen them outside the gate—and there is no one to meet them, they have nowhere to live and nowhere to stay that night. It is not surprising that the revolving door often means they come back in. I will take my noble friend's questions away and get back to him. I know we are meeting very soon.

Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)

I also welcome the noble Lord to his post. He said that the Probation Service is overworked, so what will the Government do to help it immediately to deal with the 40% situation coming in September?

Lord Timpson (Lab)

Recruiting 1,000 extra probation officers will take time. From conversations with the probation officers that I have recently met, I know that we are asking a lot of them, but they are confident that they can manage the influx of offenders in September and October safely. In the longer term, they need the extra colleagues and a system that is more stable.
Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)

My Lords, I welcome very warmly the noble Lord to his position, and congratulate him and his family company on the most remarkable work they have done for the past two decades in protecting the public by rehabilitating so many people who would otherwise have gone on to commit more crimes and settle down to a life of criminality. Other firms have done the same things, but Timpson, as I saw myself when I was Justice Secretary and before that when I was Home Secretary—I was responsible for prisons on both occasions—did quite remarkable work. We need more of that kind of opportunity for those who wish to be rehabilitated and to contribute in future.

Does the noble Lord agree that the level of sentencing and the rate of incarceration have steadily increased in this country at a quite extraordinary rate in the 30 years since I held those offices, and even more remarkably since the many years ago when I practised at the criminal Bar? Although it is right that the public are entitled to see just retribution and punishment for crime, does he agree that it is equally important that the criminal justice system tries to stop these men and women reoffending, and gives whatever support is available to those willing to be reformed to lead honest lives and therefore not create victims of future crime? That is just as important as the punishment.

I will not go on. I give the noble Lord cross-party support; I agree with every word that he and the Liberal Democrat spokesman have said so far. I hope that the new prisons that he has to build will be designed to provide space for rehabilitation, training and the civilised opportunities that I am sure he wishes to provide. I am sure he agrees that the long-term answer is not just to lock up more and more people and have massive building programmes going on and on, with ever more people turning to crime as soon as they are released.

Lord Timpson (Lab)

I thank the noble Lord; if he stays around long enough, he may find a mention of himself in my maiden speech—a positive one. So far as finding work, when I first started recruiting people from prison, I was the only one knocking on the gates of the prison. We now have a good problem: that so many companies have recognised that there are talented people who want to leave prison and get a job that it has become a very competitive process. That is a positive thing.

We will conduct a sentencing review; it needs to focus on cutting crime, and to be consistent and coherent. The noble Lord asked about the new design of prisons. Two weeks ago we went to Five Wells, a very new prison just outside Wellingborough. The facilities it has really help to reduce reoffending; it has fantastic workshops and educational facilities, and the maintenance bills are much lower. I look forward to having the conversations again that we had probably 15 years ago.

The Lord Bishop of Gloucester

My Lords, I too welcome the noble Lord, Lord Timpson—someone so brilliantly equipped for the task. I welcome this Statement and all the good sense contained in it as we lift this immediate crisis. I am all for new prison places, as long as they are not in addition to all the crumbling prison places. It was wonderful to hear him offer assurance that increased prison capacity will not become the main aim but rather, if I heard correctly, that we will have the courage to look at a whole-systems approach in a solution-focused way.

One of my concerns in all this is that unless we change the public perception and public narrative, we will not have support. Can the noble Lord say something about the thinking about how we change public education and perception, so that people understand what prison is for and not for, that two-thirds of people in prison are there for non-violent offences, and that we need to look upstream?

Lord Timpson (Lab)

I thank the right reverend Prelate. New prison places are important and we will build more prisons—prisons we are proud of. So far as the public narrative goes, I could not agree more, but I have confidence in the fact that 20 years ago, when I first started recruiting people from prison, no one thought it was a good idea. Now, every company I meet thinks it is a good idea. It proves that changing perception when it comes to offenders and prisons takes time. I hope to be in this role longer than many other people who have done my role, and to be able to get into the detail and try to get prisons we are proud of.

Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Timpson, to the Dispatch Box as the Minister for Prisons, Parole and Probation. From the noise the House made earlier, I think I am not alone in thinking that he is probably the best man for the job. I suppose I should draw attention to my entry in the register of interests; I am a non-practising member of the Faculty of Advocates. In fact, I presently have another interest that I suppose is not yet registered, in that I have a pair of shoes in my local Timpson for repair.

Speaking to Channel 4 News earlier this year, my noble friend said that in his view only one-third of people in prison needed to be there. In order to emphasise that radically reducing the prison population is not impossible, he added that the Netherlands had halved its prison population while reducing crime. That contradicts what I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, implied in what I can describe only as a plea in mitigation on behalf of the previous Government, which was that these two things were impossible. I know the Minister has studied this. How did the Netherlands manage to reduce crime and reduce the prison population by almost half?

Lord Timpson (Lab)

Before we look at any other countries and international comparisons, we need to fix the system we have first. Before we can do anything on reducing reoffending and having prisons we are proud of, we need to stabilise the system. It is our first priority. We need to fix it, and we need to fix the capacity so that we do not have this problem again. We need to enable our fantastic staff in our prisons and Probation Services to do what they want to do, to put the building blocks in place so people who go to prison have a much better chance of not going back.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)

My Lords, the Minister has a great deal of personal experience to give, and his presence is greatly to be welcomed. I support the policy that he has announced; it is sensible in the circumstances. But, if it is to be safe, there needs to be proper provision for the accommodation and employment of released prisoners. Can he be a little more specific about that?

Lord Timpson (Lab)

Having somewhere to live when someone is released from prison is vital, and we are planning to continue with all the schemes that are currently in place, including the 84 nights that are scheduled for people who leave prison. One of my concerns is that recently, because capacity has been so constrained, hard-working prison and probation staff have not always been able to manage the transition from prison to the community as well as I would like to see in future.

Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)

My Lords, I warmly welcome the noble Lord to his new role and to this House. His considerable experience and reputation go before him and he is highly respected as a man who lives his values. Having said that, it has to be said that he has inherited a crock, and I am afraid it is not a crock of gold.

The Minister paints a truly horrific picture of the situation now facing this country and we on this side are looking forward to working with him constructively over the next parliamentary term. In time, we can further reduce the prison population by implementing the recommendations of the Justice Select Committee and conducting a resentencing exercise for the unfortunate indeterminate sentence prisoners still stuck in a limbo of uncertainty. Will the IPP sentencing review include indeterminate sentence prisoners? I know that is perhaps a discussion for another day, but right now we can do little other than agree to the release, with suitable support and safety conditions, of certain categories of prisoners who are towards the end of their tariff to make room for other individuals who present more of a threat to society.

Lord Timpson (Lab)

I am well aware of the issues around indeterminate sentences for public protection. I know that matter is of great interest to noble Lords. It would not be appropriate to make changes in relation to IPP prisoners, because they are a different order of public protection risk. I am determined to make more progress on IPP prisoners. As I say, we will build on the work done by the previous Government. We worked constructively with the previous Administration on sensible changes that could be made in the safest possible way for the public. Those changes were on the licence period and the action plan, and we will crack on with that as a new Government. Any changes that we make to the regime for that type of sentence, which has rightly been abolished, must be done while balancing the public protection risk, which we would never take lightly.

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to his new role. I want to bring up the issue of Dartmoor prison; I live six miles from it and have been very involved with it for over 30 years. The significance is that 175 people will be moved within the next two weeks. Does that mean there will be only 525 male places available in England? How long will it take to reopen Dartmoor, if at all? If it is not to be reopened, what are we to do to ensure that the skills and expertise there are used elsewhere in the prison service? Because of the potential challenges to the local economy, can we seriously consider a new prison somewhere nearby?
Lord Timpson (Lab)

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, for her question. Interestingly, this week I have heard of Members of Parliament in the other place complaining about people wanting to build a new prison in their area, and then people also complaining that we are closing prisons in their area.

The circumstances at Dartmoor are exceptional and it is a very unfortunate situation that we are in. We spoke to the Prison Officers' Association, which I met last week to discuss our plans to support the workforce there. It has been a very successful prison, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware; it has been very well run and has had very good outcomes. We need to make sure that we retain the talented staff who are there. I have also spoken to the local MP to assure him that we will inform him of everything we know as soon as it happens, and that we will maintain the prison while it is temporarily closed so it will be ready to be reopened if we can.

Lord Garnier (Con)

My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of the Prison Reform Trust, which is already known to the Minister. Will he accept that it was a great pity that, under the last Labour Government— I was shadow Prisons Minister during part of that time—a large number of prison farms and gardens and equally rehabilitative facilities were closed, allowing prisoners to leave prison unable to get jobs with Timpson and indeed unable to get jobs at all? Will he make it a point that, first, he gets direct access to the Prime Minister on prisons policy—without that, he may drift—and that, secondly, he will reintroduce prison farms and gardens and introduce purposeful activity in our prisons? There are too many prisoners sitting in cramped cells, essentially living in a shared lavatory, when they ought to be getting out, training, reading, writing and learning how to fend for themselves once they have left prison.

Lord Timpson (Lab)

I used to see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, at the other end of a much smaller table when I was chair of the Prison Reform Trust. He sat in the middle on the right. This time he is straight in front of me.

Lord Garnier (Con)

I am still on the right.

Lord Timpson (Lab)

He is still on the right. In fact, he never sat on the left.

I accept that farms and gardens are very positive in prison environments. In fact, one of the prisons I visited recently is HMP Haverigg, a prison that Prisons Ministers rarely visit at all at the far end of Cumbria. One of my goals in this role is to go and see the prisons that Prisons Ministers have never been to. At Haverigg there is a big focus on gardening and market gardening, which creates not just extra skills but a great nurturing environment for the prisoners there. It is also a source of income, because they have a little shop at the gate. That is something I am a big fan of and I will be ensuring that we do all we can to support that
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)

I welcome the Minister to his place; it is a brilliant stroke by the Labour Government. However, I did not quite understand his reply on the IPP prisoners. Clearly there is an injustice there that needs to be sorted as fast as possible. It was created by the last Labour Government, so it would be appropriate for the current Labour Government to sort it out as quickly as possible.

Lord Timpson (Lab)

The situation with IPP prisoners is of great concern. I know that huge numbers of Members on both sides of the House care about it deeply, and I share that concern. IPP prisoners are not caught by the changes that we are putting forward. I have spent a lot of time talking to IPP prisoners inside and outside prison—in fact, in my previous role a number of IPP prisoners were colleagues—so I know the complexity of the issues involved. I also know that we as a House need to be determined to find all that we can do to support IPP prisoners and their families, and to make sure that we still maintain safety.

Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)

My Lords, will the Minister have an early meeting with his opposite number in the Department of Health, because the NHS has responsibility for prison health services? I regret that it is not always its highest priority, and the prisons are full, as the Minister will know, of people with long-term conditions, including physical and mental health problems. It is essential that they are given appropriate health understanding. Lastly, whenever he visits a prison, will he see whether he can find time to meet the chaplain? The chaplain has a unique role, supporting staff and families, as well as prisoners.

Lord Timpson (Lab)

I thank the noble Baroness. I often meet chaplains when I go into prisons. The last time I had a long meeting with one was in Belmarsh, at a small part of the prison where terminally ill prisoners were living. I thought the kindness and compassion that they had was wonderful to see. As for health commissioning in prisons, one of the things that I want to work on in this role is understanding how commissioning works in prisons, as well as supporting governors, who are often managing multi-million- pound contracts, so that they can ensure that things are working well and people are accountable for what they do.

Perhaps I could leave your Lordships with one thing that I have seen in the last few years to support people with challenges. It was in Wakefield prison, where an autism wing has been set up. When the prisoners were put in this unit, having been very disruptive and moved around the estate all the time, they were very calm. They stayed there and made the whole prison environment much better. I agree that a lot needs to be done.