Asked by
To ask His Majesty's Government what investment they are planning
to reduce carbon emissions from bus fleets.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport ( of Richmond Hill) (Lab)
The full transition to zero-emission buses is a vital part of the
Government's plan to make buses better for passengers and to
realise the benefits of lower running costs, cleaner air and
smoother, quieter journeys. The department's spending envelope
for the financial year 2025-26 was announced at the Budget.
Careful consideration is being given to how to maximise the
benefits of zero-emission buses funding against our departmental
objectives.
(LD)
My Lords, many large bus companies have invested significant
capital in new electric and hydrogen buses alongside government
zero-emission bus funding, but there are currently no dedicated
government funding streams post 2025. When can we expect a new
detailed funding round to help transform bus fleets across the
country?
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Baroness will know that bus operations across England
are generally managed by operators, and they ensure that depots
are configured to accommodate their fleet. It is they who must
apply to distribution network operators for grid connections. The
Department for Energy Security and Net Zero announced that the
newly formed National Energy System Operator has been asked to
produce the first strategic spatial plan for energy, and it is
also looking at reforming the connection process. Both those
actions will help bus operators—it is their investment in their
depots that enables electric buses to run.
(Con)
Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Harrogate Bus
Company, which is electrifying its fleet at the moment? It is not
only electrifying its buses but bringing in innovative
arrangements for charging en route—a very noble effort.
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I agree with the noble Lord that actions such as those taken in
Harrogate to electrify bus fleets have real benefits. The
innovative technology example, which allows charging in the
course of a journey, is also to be lauded.
(GP)
My Lords, does the Minister agree with me, and with Green Party
policy, that improving our bus services is a crucial part of
fighting climate change? It enables people to get out of their
cars, and many people do not want to carry on driving as they get
older.
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
I do not think that is just Green Party policy, but I agree with
the noble Baroness that that principle of encouraging public
transport and bus use is absolutely what we need.
(Con)
My Lords, as the number of electric buses purchased by operators
increases, the cost of producing those buses is falling. When
does the Department for Transport expect the total cost of
ownership of an electric bus, including its reduced operation
costs, to be the same as that of a traditional vehicle?
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Baroness raises a good point. The whole purpose of
encouraging the production of electric buses is to ensure that
the market develops and the costs fall. I do not currently have
an estimate of whether the cost of those vehicles will ever equal
the cost of traditional diesel buses, but I can say that it is
absolutely the right move, and the support given by successive
zero-emission bus schemes is contributing to the manufacturing
industry keeping abreast of technology and to the general
reduction in cost. I will see whether we can find any figures; if
we can, I shall write to the noble Baroness with them.
(LD)
My Lords, in 2021, the previous Government consulted on ending
the sale of diesel buses, but never made a decision. Will the new
Government provide clarity over the date for the end of the sale
of diesel buses to provide confidence for the bus industry and
franchising authorities and certainty for the supply chain?
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
My understanding is that, progressively, the production of
zero-emission buses has resulted in vehicles that have more
capability of working a full day. The experiment in Harrogate
referred to earlier, which is about charging vehicles during the
day, is one way of ensuring that the bus industry will have the
opportunity in due course of replacing all diesel buses with
electric buses. I cannot currently answer the question about when
that will be, but I know that that experiment is one of a number
of things that need to happen in order that vehicles can be
purchased with confidence to do all the jobs that buses do in
England, Wales and Scotland.
(Con)
My Lords, I applaud the Minister for retrofitting one of his
Routemasters with a more environmentally friendly engine. Given
that, is he aware of any schemes to encourage bus companies to
retrofit their existing stock of buses rather than scrapping them
and having to buy new ones, given the environmental life cycle
costs?
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Lord refers to a vehicle built in 1962 that has Euro 6
emission standards. I have not yet quite got to the stage of
fitting one of those vehicles with batteries, but you never know.
The serious point here is that these vehicles last an average of
15 years, so taking steps for most or all new vehicles in the
fleet to be zero emission is obviously the way of converting the
entire fleet within a reasonable time.
(CB)
My Lords, as the diesel bus fleet gets older, the risk of leakage
from the exhaust into the cabins of those buses goes up. Are the
Government giving any guidance to bus companies that have old
buses on carbon monoxide monitoring to protect their drivers and
passengers from low-level carbon monoxide exposure, given the
evidence of harm from that over time?
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency inspects annually and on
a random basis all types of bus and coach to make sure they
comply with the correct standards. One of those standards is no
leakage from the exhaust. I will take away the point that the
noble Baroness raises about carbon monoxide monitoring to check
that it is being considered across the country and write to her
on it.
(Con)
My Lords, on hydrogen-powered buses, when TfL put the hydrogen
fuelling infrastructure into a single depot to run hydrogen buses
in London, it turned out to be a very expensive undertaking. The
Government have offered no estimate of what it will cost to
achieve such a conversion, particularly in relation to hydrogen.
Does the Minister ever reflect that persons on modest incomes
might have preferred this money to have been spent on maintaining
the bus fare cap at £2 rather than increasing it by 50%?
of Richmond Hill (Lab)
The noble Lord is as knowledgeable about the original hydrogen
fuel cell installation in London as I am, because it was under my
control that it was put in. Of course, the truth is that an
installation for three vehicles out of a fleet of 8,000 would
proportionately be enormously expensive, but it was there for a
reason: to experiment with hydrogen fuel cells. The result has
been generational change in fuel cells for vehicles. The
Government believe that, in appropriate circumstances, hydrogen
is one way of getting zero emissions. We do not get technical
progress without experimentation; we expect the cost to decline.
That, together with electricity, will be the way of producing
zero-emission buses and bus fares at reasonable prices.
