Asked by
To ask His Majesty's Government what assessment they have made of
the United Kingdom's future combat air capability.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence () (Lab)
My Lords, our assessment of the future combat air capability we
require is informed by consideration of the future threat
environment and strategic context. Consequently, the Global
Combat Air Programme has been designed to utilise advanced
capabilities, including next-generation sensors, weapons and data
systems. Networked interoperability with allies and partners will
be key. In the meantime, we continue to invest in our current
fleet, which remains highly capable.
(Con)
I thank the noble Lord for that part-reassurance. The previous
Government's commitment to the Global Combat Air
Programme—GCAP—was clear and we were doing it in partnership with
Italy and Japan. However, with the best of intentions, the
current Government's position is opaque. Can the noble Lord at
least reassure the House that the Government understand the need
to plan now for a successor to Typhoon and the extent to which UK
industry is supporting thousands of jobs across the UK—not least,
for example, at Leonardo in Edinburgh—that depend on this
programme proceeding?
(Lab)
We certainly do understand that: 3,500 people are already
employed in the development of this, £2 billion has already been
invested in the research and development of the programme and
further money will be invested, as we go forward. As the Prime
Minister said a few weeks ago, the Global Combat Air Programme is
“important” and
“we are making significant progress … There is … a review going
on but … it is an important programme”.
I think that gives the reassurance that the noble Baroness is
looking for.
(CB)
My Lords, as I highlighted in Grand Committee yesterday, on
current plans, by 2040 the UK will be down to just three combat
air squadrons. Irrespective of the debate over the type and
nature of future platforms, would the Minister agree that this
position is wholly untenable for any Government who care about
the security of this country?
(Lab)
The noble and gallant Lord makes a good point. He is really
referring to investment in our defence capabilities as we go
forward. The review will look at the threats that we need to
meet, but this Government have made an absolute commitment to go
to 2.5% of GDP as soon as we can. I think that gives some
reassurance to the noble and gallant Lord.
of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, we have two aircraft carriers, which will last for some
50 years. Will the Minister confirm that, in this package of air
capability—which we absolutely need and do not have enough
of—some aircraft will have the capability of operating from those
carriers?
(Lab)
I certainly believe that the noble Lord is right to point out
that, if we have aircraft carriers, we need aircraft to operate
from them. I accept that. As far as the defence review is
concerned, there is no doubt that we will look at the future
capabilities we need, in respect of how those carriers are
deployed and where they should be deployed, but also in respect
of the necessary air combat power we need to meet the threats
that the noble Lord will know well—as indeed will the noble and
gallant Lord, .
of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, it is indeed reassuring that His Majesty's Government
appear to be recommitting to GCAP but, like AUKUS, this agreement
has been inherited from the previous Conservative Government. The
allies, in this case, are Italy and Japan. Can the Minister tell
us whether there is any scope for bringing in other partners and
whether that would that help with resilience and interoperability
with our NATO allies, for example?
(Lab)
As it stands, we are certainly sharing the costs with Italy and
Japan, as the noble Baroness points out. Regarding other
partners, we are considering that and discussions are taking
place, without any firm commitment as it stands. Interoperability
is key. She will know that Germany, France and Spain are also
developing a sixth-generation fighter—SCAF—as is the United
States. They are all part of NATO, so interoperability becomes
essential.
(CB)
My Lords, while we accept that future generations of fast jet
aircraft should be able to fly off aircraft carriers and fixed
land bases, will the noble Lord accept that we also have land
forces that need major investment? Will he also consider that
going to just 2.5% of GDP is wholly inadequate and that the
conversation should be about 3% or 3.5%?
(Lab)
The review will, of course, look at the necessary profile with
respect to air, land, sea and intelligence and technology
sharing. The Government have made an absolute commitment to 2.5%
and are determined to deliver on that as soon as they can.
(Con)
My Lords, I did not quite hear the question from the noble
Baroness, Lady , on Japan, but does the Minister
agree that the huge Tempest deal with Italy and Japan is very
much at the centre of this whole issue and that it really is
going forward in a positive way? This is a very crucial time,
when our relations with Japan are much improved and with all
sorts of plans ahead, and it would be fatal if this one had a
wobble.
(Lab)
I thank the noble Lord; that is a good question. We have made as
firm a commitment as we can, although I have said that it is also
part of the ongoing review that the noble Lord, , is undertaking. We have
made a commitment to Italy and Japan and the noble Lord will know
that the GCAP International Government Organisation was set up to
run that programme. Its headquarters are in the UK. On 2 October,
just a week or so ago, the King ratified the final part of the SI
to ensure that the treaty was put in place. That shows that the
Government are making progress with respect to the GCAP
programme.
Lord (CB)
My Lords, is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient war
stocks for our front-line aircraft at the present time?
(Lab)
The noble and gallant Lord will know that we have concerns about
the supply of ammunition and missiles. That is why this
Government are introducing a national armaments director and
working with industry. We want to ensure that the stockpiles of
weapons we have are replenishable quickly, and we will look to
see whether we have the necessary quantity as well. That will
also form part of the review led by the noble Lord, .
(Lab)
My Lords, reports from Ukraine indicate the importance of drones.
What are the Government doing to increase the capability of
drones and to add them to the needs of the future, so that we can
have many more of these smaller ones as well as the big ones that
we often talk about?
(Lab)
The noble Lord makes a really interesting point. That is the
whole point of lessons learned from the conflict in respect of
Ukraine, and that is part of what the review will look at. One
thing that the noble Lord may pray in favour is the fact that the
drones that Ukraine has used have, to an extent, neutralised the
impact of the Black Sea fleet, and the Russian fleet has been
driven back into port. That shows the utility of the use of
drones. Of course, we need sixth-generation fighters and global
combat air, but drones will form an important part of the
weaponry that we need going forward to meet future threats.
(Non-Afl)
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will agree with me that we
have an aerospace and defence industry in the United Kingdom to
be proud of. Will he ensure that, when he is looking at air
capability, he will bear in mind the totality of the United
Kingdom, including of course Northern Ireland's excellent
aerospace industry?
(Lab)
The noble Baroness will know that I know Northern Ireland
reasonably well and I have seen the fantastic skills base that
Northern Ireland has. At the moment, as it stands, the particular
emphasis in respect of the Global Combat Air Programme is that
the main centres are in the south-west of England, Lancashire and
Edinburgh. Of course, the spin-off from that is numerous small
industries. We need to ensure that the growth agenda of this
Government reaches all parts of the United Kingdom, including
Northern Ireland, as the noble Baroness pointed out.
Lord (LD)
My Lords, manned aircraft require a supply of pilots. Is the
Minister satisfied that sufficient resources are being made
available to train the pilots of the future and that they are
getting sufficient, real airtime in order to be effective?
(Lab)
The noble Lord knows that there have been problems with the
training of pilots. That is partly the point of his question. The
Government are looking at training and also at the recruitment
and retention of all these particular skills, not just in respect
of pilots but right across the Armed Forces. That is why this
Government have launched a recruitment and retention review to
see what we should do about it. Pilots will form an important
part of that.
(Con)
My Lords, given the drone capability we see daily in Ukraine,
could not that be used to puncture people smugglers' boats before
they ever leave French shores?
(Lab)
Well, I do not know about that, but the use of drones will of
course become increasingly important. With respect to the noble
Lord's suggestion, I am sure that people have heard it and will
consider it in due course.
(LD)
My Lords, is the Minister confident that we can keep one Vanguard
submarine at sea at all times, given the strain there is on crew
and our loss of crew because of the increasingly long time each
mission has to take because of maintenance of the rest of the
fleet?
(Lab)
This is a very important question and there should be no
confusion here. The noble Lord is talking about the UK's nuclear
deterrent. That forms an important part of our deterrent. We are
absolutely 100% certain that we will retain a constant at-sea
nuclear deterrent presence. That needs to be heard from this
Chamber and across the globe. There is no way that we will in any
way allow our nuclear deterrent to be compromised. That needs to
be heard loud and clear.
